Bill Moyers: "You've studied history enough to know what works for the individual in a small realm of relationship isn't a rule that the nation state can live by is it? "
Thomas Cahill: "I don't think that real civilization ever occurs because of anything that a nation state does. It occurs because of movements within the nation state that are led by sometimes one individual or a series of individuals. Desmond Tutu is an excellent example of that."
-- from the the PBS television program Bill Moyers Journal, aired 2007-11-09