Holden worried at his bottom lip a little bit before he let his legs straighten out and his notebook slip from his lap. He let out a quiet sigh, wondering how some peopel could do the awful things that they did to eachother. Sure, sometimes things in the pack could be a little brutal, but at the end of it they were a family that protected eachother when needed. At least Holden felt it was that way.

"It's amazing at what humans can do to eachother," he said after a moment, "Or just do in general."

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Sullivan hadn't liked humans before the whole incident, but he downright hated them now. Wolves were superior in every way. "I don't get how any of us can be with a human. Except maybe to make more werewolves." It disturbed him a little because he was starting to sound like his father, but the older he got the more he felt like humans were a waste of space.

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"Not all of them are bad," Holden said after a moment, letting his head to the side as he gazed off into the distance, just watching the tree move. "Luka was very sweet. But it's not the same, you know? That connection, it won't ever be the same if one of us is with a human than if we were with someone like us. At least I don't think it will be," he clarified. He supposed it was probably different for everyone. "Even we can do terrible things to eachother sometimes. Look at Cassidy's pack, they really abused and hurt him."

He was aware that maybe Sullivan hadn't yet met Cassidy, or been aware of the boy's situation if he had. The only reason why Holden knew what he knew was because he was quiet, and sometimes people talked and he just heard things.

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Accepting gray areas was not Sullivan's strong suit and Holden's words made him frown. "They were just mutts then." Louisa's pack history had already put him at unease with his own strict world view. But at least their alpha had been overpowered by a good alpha, Louisa herself. Cassidy's pack was even worse. After a moment of thinking, Sullivan tried to make sense of it. "Survival of the fittest. Maybe Cassidy should have stuck it out.." As he said it, he knew something was wrong with the logic. "It'll make him stronger."

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"There's a difference between making someone stronger, and hurting them just because you can," Holden replied after a moment. He was well aware of the fact that Sullivan had walked a fine line with that sort of thing, Austin as well. "There's a difference between pushing someone to realize that they can say no, or stick up for themselves, and starving them and beating them and abusing them," he clarified. "There's a difference between asserting dominance and just being plain cruel."

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Sullivan did not like thinking. Existing in the cerebral made him feel stupid, logic choking him up and he kept runing into walls. It was why he hated school so much. It was clear that this line of conversation was agitating him a little. "Have you met the kid? And what about those two little ones? You hardly ever come up to the main house. Why is that?"

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"I met him for a second, the other morning when Loren took him and Everett to get the little ones," he answered, because he'd wanted to give Ever something of his that he'd written. "And yeah, I met the little ones. I think Julian looks like a mini Robin," he added, then he offered a shrug. "I just like to keep to myself sometimes, I guess."

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Sometimes? Sullivan thought all the time. Robin had always felt like he didn't fit in and he figured Holden must feel the same way too. "If you're not careful, you're going to turn into Felix. Working all the time and living as far away as possible." As far away and still on pack lands, he meant.

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Holden offered a simple roll of his shoulders at that and lifted a hand up to ruffle it through his dark hair. He wasn't sure that he'd end up quite like Felix. Holden tried to be social, and he could be when he wanted, and he did like other members of the pack. He was just a loner sometimes.

"I guess I should be more social, I don't know," he said after a moment, reaching for his lemonade to take a sip.

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"Guess there are more people to be social with than just me." Maybe he'd judged based solely on the fact that the two of them hadn't interacted much. He mimicked the shrug and then got to his feet. He'd pretty much said what he'd come to say. "I'll let you get back to writing."

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"Okay," Holden replied, tipping his head up to look at Sullivan as the wolf got up. He had to squint a little bit because of the way the sun was streaming down, but he didn't mind. "I guess I'll see you around. Goodluck with everything." Everything with Robin and finding the ones who had hurt him.

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